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	<title>Comments on: Mormon Historical Studies vs. Mormon Theological Studies</title>
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	<link>http://mormonphilosophyandtheology.wordpress.com/2008/04/15/mormon-historical-studies-vs-mormon-theological-studies/</link>
	<description>Explorations in Mormon Thought</description>
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		<title>By: Michaela Stephens</title>
		<link>http://mormonphilosophyandtheology.wordpress.com/2008/04/15/mormon-historical-studies-vs-mormon-theological-studies/#comment-15</link>
		<dc:creator>Michaela Stephens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 01:17:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonphilosophyandtheology.wordpress.com/?p=16#comment-15</guid>
		<description>&quot;Mormonism suffers in religious studies because we have so little work in actual theology, philosophical theology, systematics, phenomenology or philosophical reflection.&quot;

I&#039;m afraid I don&#039;t quite understand what is meant by this.  I thought that we have tons of it already.  If it isn&#039;t in conference talks, Ensigns, LDS blogs, LDS lesson manuals, sacrament talks, church lessons, family home evening lessons, then what are you looking for?  I&#039;m confused.   
Can the word &quot;theology&quot; be interchanged with &quot;doctrine&quot; or are you looking for something else?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Mormonism suffers in religious studies because we have so little work in actual theology, philosophical theology, systematics, phenomenology or philosophical reflection.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m afraid I don&#8217;t quite understand what is meant by this.  I thought that we have tons of it already.  If it isn&#8217;t in conference talks, Ensigns, LDS blogs, LDS lesson manuals, sacrament talks, church lessons, family home evening lessons, then what are you looking for?  I&#8217;m confused.<br />
Can the word &#8220;theology&#8221; be interchanged with &#8220;doctrine&#8221; or are you looking for something else?</p>
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		<title>By: Wakener</title>
		<link>http://mormonphilosophyandtheology.wordpress.com/2008/04/15/mormon-historical-studies-vs-mormon-theological-studies/#comment-14</link>
		<dc:creator>Wakener</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 03:22:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonphilosophyandtheology.wordpress.com/?p=16#comment-14</guid>
		<description>Somehow i missed the point. Probably lost in translation :) Anyway ... nice blog to visit.

cheers, Wakener.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Somehow i missed the point. Probably lost in translation <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  Anyway &#8230; nice blog to visit.</p>
<p>cheers, Wakener.</p>
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		<title>By: jacobtbaker</title>
		<link>http://mormonphilosophyandtheology.wordpress.com/2008/04/15/mormon-historical-studies-vs-mormon-theological-studies/#comment-13</link>
		<dc:creator>jacobtbaker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:40:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonphilosophyandtheology.wordpress.com/?p=16#comment-13</guid>
		<description>Blake:

Excellent response. However, I don&#039;t believe I advocated Mormon theology solely on the basis of its uniqueness. One of the things I like about Mormonism is its various idiosyncrasies, true; but that is not the sole basis for adopting a Mormon theological view. I sympathize with my friend (see my above comment) in that I don&#039;t think we can simply say we are Christians just like any other Christian denomination. Even saying we are Restored Christianity does not tell the whole story. I agree with Jan Shipps&#039;s assessment of Mormonism as a new religious movement, with a unique theology and unique religious characteristics.

But this speaks to my first post. It is not so simple to say we are Mormons and not Christians; our ties to both Christianity and the revealed and historical Jesus Christ are real and obvious. On the other hand, we cannot flippantly say were are Christians either; we really are distinguishable (usually in a good way) from mainstream Christianity. This is why I prefer caution when describing Mormon theology. We haven&#039;t yet decided (collectively) what we are. And maybe that&#039;s a good thing in the long run.

The other response I have is that because of the way it uses revelation, Mormons are often blind to the fact that they are theologizing all the time; in many ways more than the average Christian. We may not have an official theology--as defined as adopted by church membership in general--but we systematize and define doctrines in ways that help them interrelatedly makes sense to us, and that is pure theologizing. So saying we do not do nor have a theology is simply incorrect, and the problem lies in not admitting this fact.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blake:</p>
<p>Excellent response. However, I don&#8217;t believe I advocated Mormon theology solely on the basis of its uniqueness. One of the things I like about Mormonism is its various idiosyncrasies, true; but that is not the sole basis for adopting a Mormon theological view. I sympathize with my friend (see my above comment) in that I don&#8217;t think we can simply say we are Christians just like any other Christian denomination. Even saying we are Restored Christianity does not tell the whole story. I agree with Jan Shipps&#8217;s assessment of Mormonism as a new religious movement, with a unique theology and unique religious characteristics.</p>
<p>But this speaks to my first post. It is not so simple to say we are Mormons and not Christians; our ties to both Christianity and the revealed and historical Jesus Christ are real and obvious. On the other hand, we cannot flippantly say were are Christians either; we really are distinguishable (usually in a good way) from mainstream Christianity. This is why I prefer caution when describing Mormon theology. We haven&#8217;t yet decided (collectively) what we are. And maybe that&#8217;s a good thing in the long run.</p>
<p>The other response I have is that because of the way it uses revelation, Mormons are often blind to the fact that they are theologizing all the time; in many ways more than the average Christian. We may not have an official theology&#8211;as defined as adopted by church membership in general&#8211;but we systematize and define doctrines in ways that help them interrelatedly makes sense to us, and that is pure theologizing. So saying we do not do nor have a theology is simply incorrect, and the problem lies in not admitting this fact.</p>
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		<title>By: Blake</title>
		<link>http://mormonphilosophyandtheology.wordpress.com/2008/04/15/mormon-historical-studies-vs-mormon-theological-studies/#comment-12</link>
		<dc:creator>Blake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jun 2008 17:43:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonphilosophyandtheology.wordpress.com/?p=16#comment-12</guid>
		<description>Good post Jacob. I have often been wary of the connection between history as historians write it and theology in Mormonism. Perhaps my hesitation at accepting history as our theology is three-fold. My first concern can be seen in light of a statement by April DeConick (a fine historian of ascension experiences in merkabah mysticism in the second temple period) -- &quot;As an historian I am not concerned with whether these ancient people &#039;actually&#039; experienced God. I can never know this. But that does not make its study pointless. . . &#039;Experience as such is not part of the historical record. The only thing directly available to the historian . . . is evidence, largely in the form of written records&#039;.&quot;  Thus, the historian is largely one who constructs a theory based on literary interpretation.  That is not theology. The historian is not interested in whether the experiences actually happened, but only in what the evidence says. In contrast, the phiosophical theologian is intensely interested in whether these experiences occurred. The theologian is interested in whether the claim that God exists is true The theologian is interested in not merely what was claimed, but the reality of whether God communicates and what kind of being is presupposed in such revelation or what is revealed in the revelation. The historian cannot be concerned with these matters qua historian or qua written history. What Mormon historians want is mere history as opposed to history made meaningful because it is the manifestation of a theological view about history. The fight about the new Mormon history is whether Mormon history is mere history, that doesn&#039;t care about the truth of visions and could proceed along naturalistic assumptions alone; or whether we care about the truth-claims made about the theological commitments of history lived as as the unfolding of God&#039;s plan for the world. The historian is necessarily not a part of the community of faith when writing as historian on the view of the new Mormon history and not a historian when he or she joins the community of faith.  

That brings me to a second point that interacts with your view that what you like about Mormonism is precisely that it is different and we lose something to the extent we are like other Christians. You want a specialized field of study for Mormonism. Well, by definition every religious tradition has a unique history, but are all alike in that what one is studying in doing religious studies is primarily history. We are just doing what others do when treating a religious tradition from the outside.

I would comment that adopting a theology because it differs is a pretty poor criteria. Christians are all devoted to the man who walked around the Palestinian countryside two millenia ago. We ought to have significant commonality. Something isn&#039;t true just because its different. On the other hand, I would never condone bending the revelations of the restoration to mean something that they don&#039;t just to fit into the club.

That brings me to my third point. Mormonism suffers in religious studies because we have so little work in actual theology, philosophical theology, systematics, phenomenology or philosophical reflection. We are reduced to studying history and that history is and will necessarily remain a third party endeavor from the outside when it enters the academy. To that kind of study I say -- isn&#039;t that apostasy?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good post Jacob. I have often been wary of the connection between history as historians write it and theology in Mormonism. Perhaps my hesitation at accepting history as our theology is three-fold. My first concern can be seen in light of a statement by April DeConick (a fine historian of ascension experiences in merkabah mysticism in the second temple period) &#8212; &#8220;As an historian I am not concerned with whether these ancient people &#8216;actually&#8217; experienced God. I can never know this. But that does not make its study pointless. . . &#8216;Experience as such is not part of the historical record. The only thing directly available to the historian . . . is evidence, largely in the form of written records&#8217;.&#8221;  Thus, the historian is largely one who constructs a theory based on literary interpretation.  That is not theology. The historian is not interested in whether the experiences actually happened, but only in what the evidence says. In contrast, the phiosophical theologian is intensely interested in whether these experiences occurred. The theologian is interested in whether the claim that God exists is true The theologian is interested in not merely what was claimed, but the reality of whether God communicates and what kind of being is presupposed in such revelation or what is revealed in the revelation. The historian cannot be concerned with these matters qua historian or qua written history. What Mormon historians want is mere history as opposed to history made meaningful because it is the manifestation of a theological view about history. The fight about the new Mormon history is whether Mormon history is mere history, that doesn&#8217;t care about the truth of visions and could proceed along naturalistic assumptions alone; or whether we care about the truth-claims made about the theological commitments of history lived as as the unfolding of God&#8217;s plan for the world. The historian is necessarily not a part of the community of faith when writing as historian on the view of the new Mormon history and not a historian when he or she joins the community of faith.  </p>
<p>That brings me to a second point that interacts with your view that what you like about Mormonism is precisely that it is different and we lose something to the extent we are like other Christians. You want a specialized field of study for Mormonism. Well, by definition every religious tradition has a unique history, but are all alike in that what one is studying in doing religious studies is primarily history. We are just doing what others do when treating a religious tradition from the outside.</p>
<p>I would comment that adopting a theology because it differs is a pretty poor criteria. Christians are all devoted to the man who walked around the Palestinian countryside two millenia ago. We ought to have significant commonality. Something isn&#8217;t true just because its different. On the other hand, I would never condone bending the revelations of the restoration to mean something that they don&#8217;t just to fit into the club.</p>
<p>That brings me to my third point. Mormonism suffers in religious studies because we have so little work in actual theology, philosophical theology, systematics, phenomenology or philosophical reflection. We are reduced to studying history and that history is and will necessarily remain a third party endeavor from the outside when it enters the academy. To that kind of study I say &#8212; isn&#8217;t that apostasy?</p>
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		<title>By: jacobtbaker</title>
		<link>http://mormonphilosophyandtheology.wordpress.com/2008/04/15/mormon-historical-studies-vs-mormon-theological-studies/#comment-9</link>
		<dc:creator>jacobtbaker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 20:46:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonphilosophyandtheology.wordpress.com/?p=16#comment-9</guid>
		<description>I agree with you about the revelational, prophetic theology that most closely describes how Mormons look at theology. In my last post I referenced this vis-a-vis Jim Faulconer&#039;s take on Mormonism as atheological. While I agree with Jim that Mormons place more emphasis on practice and living prophecy than theologizing, I don&#039;t think we can call Mormonism atheological. We do do theology, just in our own way. Actually, I can&#039;t think of an exception to this rule among any religion that came out of Western Christendom (which Mormonism is in large part derivative of). In Eastern religions one might say that &quot;theology&quot; is a foreign concept, but not in the west. Mormons and Christians alike have always tried to rationally understand &quot;revealed&quot; religion. Whether we want to admit it or not, we do engage in theology, just not, as mentioned above, in the same way or with the same zeal as does the mainstream Tradition.

The interesting thing for me is that even though we do it, we often (or many in our tradition often) want to say that we don&#039;t do it. What we do is something different. This is sometimes simply an observation of what is done in practice, but more frequently it appears as more of an ethical statement: &quot;we don&#039;t do theology; we do something different; and that makes us special and unique.&quot; In other words: our religion is qualitatively better than those that traditionally do theology and see a valuable place for it. I&#039;ll give an example of this type of thinking, which I think parallels what I am trying to say. 

Some of the students here in Claremont were discussing the SMPT conference, which only one of us could attend. The student who attended told us that during Stephen Davis&#039;s presentation (Steve is a professor of religion here at Claremont) Steve said that if Mormons understood the nature of God in the way that Blake Ostler does (i.e., as monarcho-theistic and not one god among many as in the infinite regress model) then many Christians could get behind Mormonism and not see it as so heretical. One of the students put up his hand and said, &quot;That - I don&#039;t like,&quot; meaning that as soon as Christians began seeing Mormons as truly &quot;one of the club&quot; then Mormonism for this student has ceased to be the special, unique, different religion that he has always held dear. He doesn&#039;t want Mormonism to be just another Christian denomination. Mormonism must retain its distinctiveness from Christianity in order, in his opinion, to be authentic. 

I sympathize with this view on some levels. I like esoteric Mormon doctrines. I like Mormonism&#039;s unique take on traditional concepts like Christology, atonement, revelation, temple ritual, etc. However, if this is our motivation for saying that &quot;we don&#039;t do theology.&quot; then we are not being honest with ourselves and furthermore, we will find it more difficult to speak to other Christian faiths; our impetuousness about our own religion will get in the way. The point is that we need to be more nuanced in both how we see the Christian Tradition and how we see our own tradition. Sure our theology is different. Systematic theology (and many other traditional theologies) will never be the sole way that Mormons understand and explain their faith (though as I have argued, systematic theology can be a valuable tool for us). But we do engage in theology. Call it our own &quot;brand&quot; of theology, fine. But theology is and has always been, useful to us. It&#039;s not something to be ashamed of.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with you about the revelational, prophetic theology that most closely describes how Mormons look at theology. In my last post I referenced this vis-a-vis Jim Faulconer&#8217;s take on Mormonism as atheological. While I agree with Jim that Mormons place more emphasis on practice and living prophecy than theologizing, I don&#8217;t think we can call Mormonism atheological. We do do theology, just in our own way. Actually, I can&#8217;t think of an exception to this rule among any religion that came out of Western Christendom (which Mormonism is in large part derivative of). In Eastern religions one might say that &#8220;theology&#8221; is a foreign concept, but not in the west. Mormons and Christians alike have always tried to rationally understand &#8220;revealed&#8221; religion. Whether we want to admit it or not, we do engage in theology, just not, as mentioned above, in the same way or with the same zeal as does the mainstream Tradition.</p>
<p>The interesting thing for me is that even though we do it, we often (or many in our tradition often) want to say that we don&#8217;t do it. What we do is something different. This is sometimes simply an observation of what is done in practice, but more frequently it appears as more of an ethical statement: &#8220;we don&#8217;t do theology; we do something different; and that makes us special and unique.&#8221; In other words: our religion is qualitatively better than those that traditionally do theology and see a valuable place for it. I&#8217;ll give an example of this type of thinking, which I think parallels what I am trying to say. </p>
<p>Some of the students here in Claremont were discussing the SMPT conference, which only one of us could attend. The student who attended told us that during Stephen Davis&#8217;s presentation (Steve is a professor of religion here at Claremont) Steve said that if Mormons understood the nature of God in the way that Blake Ostler does (i.e., as monarcho-theistic and not one god among many as in the infinite regress model) then many Christians could get behind Mormonism and not see it as so heretical. One of the students put up his hand and said, &#8220;That &#8211; I don&#8217;t like,&#8221; meaning that as soon as Christians began seeing Mormons as truly &#8220;one of the club&#8221; then Mormonism for this student has ceased to be the special, unique, different religion that he has always held dear. He doesn&#8217;t want Mormonism to be just another Christian denomination. Mormonism must retain its distinctiveness from Christianity in order, in his opinion, to be authentic. </p>
<p>I sympathize with this view on some levels. I like esoteric Mormon doctrines. I like Mormonism&#8217;s unique take on traditional concepts like Christology, atonement, revelation, temple ritual, etc. However, if this is our motivation for saying that &#8220;we don&#8217;t do theology.&#8221; then we are not being honest with ourselves and furthermore, we will find it more difficult to speak to other Christian faiths; our impetuousness about our own religion will get in the way. The point is that we need to be more nuanced in both how we see the Christian Tradition and how we see our own tradition. Sure our theology is different. Systematic theology (and many other traditional theologies) will never be the sole way that Mormons understand and explain their faith (though as I have argued, systematic theology can be a valuable tool for us). But we do engage in theology. Call it our own &#8220;brand&#8221; of theology, fine. But theology is and has always been, useful to us. It&#8217;s not something to be ashamed of.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt W.</title>
		<link>http://mormonphilosophyandtheology.wordpress.com/2008/04/15/mormon-historical-studies-vs-mormon-theological-studies/#comment-8</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 18:05:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonphilosophyandtheology.wordpress.com/?p=16#comment-8</guid>
		<description>welcome to the net Jacob. I think Ostler is probably very prolific in some circles (Sunstone, etc) due to his engaging them, while his predecessors (David Paulson, Truman Madsen) are prolifc in their own spheres. 

I think a lot of LDS religious studies falls into a traditionalist camp, relying on tradition and scripture rather than a modernist view, pushing more with reason and current social experience. I think this is why a lot of LDS theology seems more bent on History. 

Also, I think this is based on the idea that revelation to the whole of the church comes from the prophet, so often, it is more fruitful for academicians to cherry pick historical quotes to support a point of view, rather than offer a &quot;reasoned argument.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>welcome to the net Jacob. I think Ostler is probably very prolific in some circles (Sunstone, etc) due to his engaging them, while his predecessors (David Paulson, Truman Madsen) are prolifc in their own spheres. </p>
<p>I think a lot of LDS religious studies falls into a traditionalist camp, relying on tradition and scripture rather than a modernist view, pushing more with reason and current social experience. I think this is why a lot of LDS theology seems more bent on History. </p>
<p>Also, I think this is based on the idea that revelation to the whole of the church comes from the prophet, so often, it is more fruitful for academicians to cherry pick historical quotes to support a point of view, rather than offer a &#8220;reasoned argument.&#8221;</p>
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